#1 No-College-Needed Job

[Imagebuffet]

How many people do you think are happy in their job? How many people would keep the job they have if they were given a choice of any job?

I'm inclined to believe that the majority of people are not particularly happy with their job. They keep their job for much the same reason that people continue living in the slums; they cannot go anywhere else.

I have to wonder how enthusiastic someone who dislikes their job feels about the money they spent to get that job?

[dryicerx]

Originally Posted by Imagebuffet

Actually, I sound like someone who is disgusted by people lying with false promises and misleading statements.
...
Amidst fraud, deception, incomplete information and manipulation.
...
The Market is rigged. That includes the college marketplace.

You say that like this is the first instance of false promises. Every single thing out there that's being marketed has false promises and advertising, and if you didn't get the memo: life isn't fair. And yes, I am blaming the victim, it's really up to the consumer/user to research and dig deeper without taking in all the information blindly without analyzing it.

Originally Posted by Imagebuffet

And my point is that has little to do with success in the business world, and certainly does not justify the cost of a college education.
...
That's part of the lie the colleges use to excuse their unreasonable pricing. It's an excuse they make to avoid the blame for their product.

That really depends on the degree/major. You really can't clump together a degree in something like political science and biomedical engineering, and in their own fields the two majors really count differently. As far as the expenses, It's really up to the consumer/student to figure out their finances and the worth of the degree beforehand (calculate how much it would cost, then figure out if the how the knowledge they acquire + their personal abilities -> realistic job and salary they can make). Majority of people don't do this, and then get screwed and get drowned in debt.

Originally Posted by Imagebuffet

Never mind 25 years into the future; try 2 years into the future! How can someone reliably and reasonably plan out a 4-year college education when the marketplace can completely change in 2?

If you go in to get a technical degree that just teaching you a skill to perform a very specialized type of work... of course that skill will be outdated in a matter of years. I completely agree this type of degrees are worthless. Not all degrees and programs are like that though, so you can't really generalize this over everything.

The programs/degrees people say college is valuable for are the ones that expand your knowledge and thinking ability rather than learning a specialized skill, for example the sciences and engineering. For example the theory behind most of the majors, that type of knowledge is timeless.

Originally Posted by Imagebuffet

Programming is an example of how fast these changes take place. When I entered college, Wordperfect was still written in assembly language, but the coming wave was C. I never intended to become a programmer, but I did add C programming to my electives. Within a year of taking that class, employers were hunting for people who knew C++. Eventually, I took a class in that, too. But, then the only jobs available were for people who knew Visual Basic. Soon after that, Java began to be popular.

I never intended to be a programmer, but I marveled that no matter what class I took, employers would want something else. Sometimes, I have seen job postings that require 5 years of experience in a programming language that has been commercially available for hardly more than 4 years.

I will say that PHP seems to have holding power.

Incidentally, the career life of programmers tends to be short. Most programmers find the job so stressful that they switch careers after 3 or 4 years.

People don't go to college to be programmers, like I mentioned before this is a easily acquired specialized skill. You don't need a degree to do that.

And if you think PHP holds value right now, you're in for a world of pain.




Correct me if I am wrong, but you are holding the institute accountable for the success of the people who come out of it with a degree. Honestly, I don't think they should be, it's really the person's responsibility to learn and use the resources provided by the institute. Last I checked, and by personal experience, only a small fraction of people fully utilize the resources by college and the rest simply just do the minimum required to get by, and of course they will get screwed at the end.

And finally, somewhat contradicting my entire post and disagreeing with the belief held by a majority, I also believe that Correlation does not imply Causation: Are people who go through good college programs successful because of the college program, or were they bound to be successful anyways and because of that got in to good college programs.

[texxter]

Interesting report from the U.S. Census - http://www.census.gov/prod/2002pubs/p23-210.pdf

[Imagebuffet]

Originally Posted by dryicerx

You say that like this is the first instance of false promises.

It is an instance. Every instance of a moral failing is a moral failing.

Originally Posted by dryicerx

Every single thing out there that's being marketed has false promises and advertising, and if you didn't get the memo: life isn't fair.

An ethical society works for fairness.

Originally Posted by dryicerx

And yes, I am blaming the victim, it's really up to the consumer/user to research and dig deeper without taking in all the information blindly without analyzing it.

You are being presumptuous when you assume that the consumer/user hasn't researched.

Originally Posted by dryicerx

If you go in to get a technical degree that just teaching you a skill to perform a very specialized type of work... of course that skill will be outdated in a matter of years. I completely agree this type of degrees are worthless.

And, yet, Collin College offers 31 of these "worthless" degrees. Your statement clearly shows that Collin College is engaging in fraud.

Originally Posted by dryicerx

The programs/degrees people say college is valuable for are the ones that expand your knowledge and thinking ability rather than learning a specialized skill, for example the sciences and engineering. For example the theory behind most of the majors, that type of knowledge is timeless.

That's actually the opposite of reality. I already qualify for an AS in General Studies. You seem to think that would be worth more than an AS in Physics, or that an AS in Physics would be worth more than an AAS in Computer Technology. You seem to think that a general degree in medicine would be worth more than a specialized degree in neurosurgery.

Originally Posted by dryicerx

People don't go to college to be programmers, like I mentioned before this is a easily acquired specialized skill. You don't need a degree to do that.

Oh, so UTD is ripping off students by offering a degree program in computer programming? Oh, they don't call it computer programming; it's Software Engineering or Computer Science.

Originally Posted by dryicerx

And if you think PHP holds value right now, you're in for a world of pain.

Calls for PHP programmers have shown up consistently for years. Of course, that could change, but I've seen premature warnings of its demise years ago.

Originally Posted by dryicerx

Correct me if I am wrong, but you are holding the institute accountable for the success of the people who come out of it with a degree. Honestly, I don't think they should be, it's really the person's responsibility to learn and use the resources provided by the institute.

I am holding institutions accountable for fairly pricing their product. Ultimately, how valuable are these degrees?

[bobcool]

I agree that you can make a solid upper middle-class living without the need to hold a college degree. This is especially true in the IT and software development industry.

But here's what I've noticed - generally speaking there's a glass ceiling when it comes to getting promoted to those higher positions that really pay the bigger salaries. These positions usually manage other people and required strategic leadership skills, and when jobs like this become available I have yet to see one that didn't require a college degree. It seems that all the senior leadership in major companies are college graduates, many with MBAs, and most of them are Marketing alumni. Revenue and generating sales is the lifeblood of any company, so it does make sense. Looking back, it makes me think I should have went to a traditional college and put the time (and money) to get a Marketing or Business degree of some sort.

But, I can't change the past, so I'll just work on changing myself to make me more valuable in my current field.

[Imagebuffet]

Originally Posted by texxter

Interesting report from the U.S. Census - http://www.census.gov/prod/2002pubs/p23-210.pdf

You should also consider this report:

Economic scarring: The long-term impacts of the recession

To summarize, individuals who enter the workforce during a recession suffer permanent economic damage, compared to those who enter the workforce during normal or rising economic times. If all else is equal, someone who enters the workforce during a recession will earn more than 2% less in his lifetime than he would have if he had entered the workforce during a normal economy. He will never earn as much as someone else who enters the workforce at a different time.

Here is an easier-to-read news article about the EPI report mentioned in the last paragraph:

http://www.usatoday.com/money/econom...-to-heal_N.htm

"Those whose families fell into poverty during the early 1980s paid the price throughout their adult lives, says First Focus, a bipartisan advocacy group in Washington, D.C. They typically received less education, were less healthy and had less consistent work histories.

"The results showed in their paychecks.

"In 2001, adults who had been 10-14 in 1979 and then fell into poverty had a median family income of $44,000, compared with $64,000 for those who stayed out of poverty during the early 1980s."

IOW, it doesn't matter how well these people do in college, or what they study; they will always earn less, simply because they have been scarred by getting caught in a bad economy when they were vulnerable.

[shutterfire]

Originally Posted by Imagebuffet

You should also consider this report:

Economic scarring: The long-term impacts of the recession

To summarize, individuals who enter the workforce during a recession suffer permanent economic damage, compared to those who enter the workforce during normal or rising economic times. If all else is equal, someone who enters the workforce during a recession will earn more than 2% less in his lifetime than he would have if he had entered the workforce during a normal economy. He will never earn as much as someone else who enters the workforce at a different time.

if this logic holds true then if have a Masters degree I will earn. 2.5 million in my work life minus 2% since it was a bad economic time = 2.45 million

If I graduate from high school and have no further education I will earn 1.2 million in my work life minus 2% = 1.17 million


hm-mm---- Education =+ 1.28 million over 40years = approx 32k per year more .

Nah wont effect my life at all pass the ramen noodles.

[Imagebuffet]

Originally Posted by shutterfire

if this logic holds true then if have a Masters degree I will earn. 2.5 million in my work life minus 2% since it was a bad economic time = 2.45 million

If I graduate from high school and have no further education I will earn 1.2 million in my work life minus 2% = 1.17 million


hm-mm---- Education =+ 1.28 million over 40years = approx 32k per year more .

Nah wont effect my life at all pass the ramen noodles.

The logic I presented holds true, but the precise numbers may vary. Your logic, though, fails to take into account that the median may be far removed from the mean.

"Of those laid off, few will regain their previous standard of living. Even 15 or 20 years after being laid off, workers who lost their jobs during the recession of the early 1980s still earned a median 20% less than their counterparts who worked throughout the downturn, according to research by economists Till von Wachter, Jae Song and Joyce Manchester."

USA Today: "Recession scars will linger long after economy heals"

[Imagebuffet]

Originally Posted by bobcool

generally speaking there's a glass ceiling when it comes to getting promoted to those higher positions that really pay the bigger salaries. These positions usually manage other people and required strategic leadership skills, and when jobs like this become available I have yet to see one that didn't require a college degree. It seems that all the senior leadership in major companies are college graduates, many with MBAs, and most of them are Marketing alumni. Revenue and generating sales is the lifeblood of any company, so it does make sense. Looking back, it makes me think I should have went to a traditional college and put the time (and money) to get a Marketing or Business degree of some sort.

There is a glass ceiling in business for anyone who is not in management. An engineer's career will quickly plateau. If he hopes to be promoted higher or earn more money, he will have to go into management.

Ironically, a BS in Business is virtually worthless in the job market (or, so I'm told, repeatedly).

[shutterfire]

Originally Posted by Imagebuffet

You should also consider this report:

Economic scarring: The long-term impacts of the recession

To summarize, individuals who enter the workforce during a recession suffer permanent economic damage, compared to those who enter the workforce during normal or rising economic times. If all else is equal, someone who enters the workforce during a recession will earn more than 2% less in his lifetime than he would have if he had entered the workforce during a normal economy. He will never earn as much as someone else who enters the workforce at a different time.

Here is an easier-to-read news article about the EPI report mentioned in the last paragraph:

Recession scars will linger long after economy heals - USATODAY.com

"Those whose families fell into poverty during the early 1980s paid the price throughout their adult lives, says First Focus, a bipartisan advocacy group in Washington, D.C. They typically received less education, were less healthy and had less consistent work histories.

"The results showed in their paychecks.

"In 2001, adults who had been 10-14 in 1979 and then fell into poverty had a median family income of $44,000, compared with $64,000 for those who stayed out of poverty during the early 1980s."

IOW, it doesn't matter how well these people do in college, or what they study; they will always earn less, simply because they have been scarred by getting caught in a bad economy when they were vulnerable.

[QUOTE=Imagebuffet;1167449]The logic I presented holds true, but the precise numbers may vary. Your logic, though, fails to take into account that the median may be far removed from the mean.[/QU

The numbers came directly from the article you sited. I just did the math for you.

[Imagebuffet]

[QUOTE=shutterfire;1167451]

Originally Posted by Imagebuffet

The logic I presented holds true, but the precise numbers may vary. Your logic, though, fails to take into account that the median may be far removed from the mean.[/QU

The numbers came directly from the article you sited. I just did the math for you.

Odd that your numbers and your conclusion don't agree with the numbers and conclusions in the articles. Perhaps you left out something?

[shutterfire]

if this logic holds true then if have a Masters degree I will earn. 2.5 million in my work life minus 2% since it was a bad economic time = 2.45 million

If I graduate from high school and have no further education I will earn 1.2 million in my work life minus 2% = 1.17 million


hm-mm---- Education =+ 1.28 million over 40years = approx 32k per year more .

Nah wont effect my life at all pass the ramen noodles.

32k/ year is a significant difference. Its like comparing Geo's to Lamborghini's.
or better yet: disposable P&S cameras to SLR's they both take photographs but the difference is immense.

[ka5txl]

Originally Posted by HotHolly

I personally think im gonna become a private detective & find missing persons, then whip them into shape as their personal trainer, and then take their glamor shots. I might even moonlight as a director of security as my weekend job. I can be bad-ass. I just chose not to be - most of the time.

I'll go missing, if you find me and you can whip me into shape. I hope mike doesn't read this

[Zack Davis]

IF people lived by numbers that told them they couldn't, wouldn't and shouldn't than the world would be a pretty lame place.

If you go to college and get a degree but don't apply that degree as the tool it is and instead try to use it as a giant "hire me cause I have a degree" flag of course you're going to fail. Degree's aren't money they're something to show you can be given a large task that takes years to complete and not only do it successfully but competently. This is all within a little protected bubble where square blocks fit in square holes unlike the real world experience a person gets out of school in the real job.

Though a specialized degree (even in something like thermodynamics) doesn't mean you can only apply your skills you gained while getting that degree to that specific job. Nor does it mean you do everything you were taught in the process of earning that degree very well. Really there's just too many variables to say if a person will be "more" wealthy, successful, happier with or without a degree because it comes down to the person.

[brewercm]

Originally Posted by Imagebuffet

An ethical society works for fairness.

Something about this quote just rubbed me the wrong way then I figured it out. Then I realized what it was.

No a Socialist society works for fairness. I think I'll pass on making sure everything is fair for everyone else. I'll take care of me and my family and if everyone else did the same that would be pretty fair.

[Imagebuffet]

Originally Posted by Zack Davis

IF people lived by numbers that told them they couldn't, wouldn't and shouldn't than the world would be a pretty lame place.

Lame as in, "Able to design a spaceship that safely lands men on Moon." That was all done with numbers that told us what we could and could not do.

Originally Posted by Zack Davis

If you go to college and get a degree but don't apply that degree as the tool it is and instead try to use it as a giant "hire me cause I have a degree" flag of course you're going to fail.

So you assume. But, you know what happens when you assume!

Originally Posted by Zack Davis

Degree's aren't money they're something to show you can be given a large task that takes years to complete and not only do it successfully but competently.

Well, that's one opinion. I've never heard of someone founding a school for that reason, but lots of drones seem to accept that as a valid explanation for forking over more money than they will see for the next decade.

Originally Posted by Zack Davis

This is all within a little protected bubble where square blocks fit in square holes unlike the real world experience a person gets out of school in the real job.

Have you come to praise Caesar or to bury him?

Originally Posted by Zack Davis

Though a specialized degree (even in something like thermodynamics) doesn't mean you can only apply your skills you gained while getting that degree to that specific job.

If someone on this forum can make sense of that sentence, please let me know!

Originally Posted by Zack Davis

Nor does it mean you do everything you were taught in the process of earning that degree very well. Really there's just too many variables to say if a person will be "more" wealthy, successful, happier with or without a degree because it comes down to the person.

So, why go to college if you can't be reasonably certain of gaining some benefit from doing so? Perhaps it is time to put down the college myth as just a myth.

[Imagebuffet]

Originally Posted by brewercm

Something about this quote just rubbed me the wrong way then I figured it out. Then I realized what it was.

No a Socialist society works for fairness. I think I'll pass on making sure everything is fair for everyone else. I'll take care of me and my family and if everyone else did the same that would be pretty fair.

This forum strictly forbids any political discussion. That's the only reason that I'm not tearing your ridiculous statement apart.

[Howard Barlow]

Writing articles for Yahoo would be #8.

[Zack Davis]

Lame as in, "Able to design a spaceship that safely lands men on Moon." That was all done with numbers that told us what we could and could not do.

But came with plenty of trial and error as well as radical out of the box thinking and the construction of the most complicated machine ever built to this day. It wasn't the numbers that got us there it was the people from the dreamers, engineers and men that put their life in the hands of untested theories. Not to mention statistical numbers with debate over mean, median and mode is far different and much more inaccurate than numbers telling you what spec's a part for a rocket or space suit needs to be.

So you assume. But, you know what happens when you assume!

When I complete my business degree, I don't assume I know that if I sit and wait for some head hunter to call me because I posted my resume on monster.com than the statistical possibility that I will get a call from someone offering me a $70k a year job is probably about as likely as winning the lottery. My assumption could in fact be incorrect though given the low probability of the above actually happening I feel safe in saying that the large majority of graduates would fail.

Well, that's one opinion. I've never heard of someone founding a school for that reason, but lots of drones seem to accept that as a valid explanation for forking over more money than they will see for the next decade.

I sure hope that someone see's the $80-150k they invest in a degree within a decade. Since that would mean they're basically unemployed if they can't make a decent salary after spending the $100,000+ it costs them to get a doctorate level degree. If they can't even walk away with a $50,000 a year paycheck minimum and see roughly $500,000 (before taxes of course) than that would be sad.

Have you come to praise Caesar or to bury him?

Both, you have to crawl before you can walk and you have to... you know the expression I'm sure. College degrees are specific for a reason, they take you from knowing little to nothing about a specific field and get you walking with a good strong base. Much like anything in this life, practice makes perfect and the more experience someone has with a field the more adept they become in that. Photography being a prime example of this as we only improve by learning from others and making practical use of what we learned.

If someone on this forum can make sense of that sentence, please let me know!

You've never met someone with a degree in a field completely unrelated to their current job? A degree isn't a tattoo that means you can only used what you learned to get in the specific field or area that is printed on it. Skill sets learned for one job can easily transfer and apply to something completely unrelated. I personally met a man with a degree in thermodynamics that now working with game makers to make the game more realistic. He said he enjoyed it more and that he never thought he'd end up in video games with his degree. ;)

So, why go to college if you can't be reasonably certain of gaining some benefit from doing so? Perhaps it is time to put down the college myth as just a myth.

Why start with nothing? If you go to college you're going to pay for your degree, but if you start out in life with no degree you're going to be living like a college student anyway. You'll start at the lowest pay, at the lowest level of whatever field you select and you have to work twice as hard as the guy next to you with the degree because you haven't had the "luxury" of learning as much as him in the first place.

Degree's are not a requirement for life, and there are exceptions to those that make money without a degree but those people when compared (statistically) to the number of people without a higher education degree are rare to say the least.

Why miss out on the chance to learn from the best by skipping the degree? If you could wouldn't you want to be able to sit and learn from some of the greatest photographic masters of all time? College degree's are expensive (the books are the worst and the biggest joke) but learning from photography forums and more, people generally don't value free information. On top of that there truly are some amazing people teaching and doing amazing things in the college system. I would give an unbelievably large pile of money to have been lucky enough to be a student of Randy Pausch before he died.

He's not the only or the last one either, simply because the college system is both a learning institution and a breeding ground for innovation and pioneers. You can pretty much name any big tech company and more than likely it was created on a university campus by a student, teacher or both. Google, Apple, Microsoft, Facebook, Napster and so many more and those are just the "consumer" level companies. College isn't merely the degree it's the experience, the connections, the people, the teachers and the life lessons.

You're seeing college as a dollar sign attached to a piece of paper when in reality it's so much more. I'm sure I've written a book so I'll just end with saying that you can be successful in life without a college degree and I fault no one for selecting that path, though I do not chose it for myself.

[markfh]

Originally Posted by Imagebuffet

This forum strictly forbids any political discussion. That's the only reason that I'm not tearing your ridiculous statement apart.

You've pretty much been on a quasi political rant this entire thread so don't go getting all high and mighty.

It's obvious you have a problem with the system as it currently works. Like someone said it ain't perfect and it ain't always fair. Fair being highly subjective.

I'm not sure what you want in life but it's seems you ain't getting it.

[Thomas Campbell]

Over a lifetime, someone with a Bachelors degree will earn somewhere along the lines of twice as much as someone with a GED or HS diploma.

My bachelors cost me somewhere in the neighborhood of $20,000 from a top 50 school in the country (think they are top 60 now.)

Before I earned my degree, the best I did was landscaping with a couple buddies. I was good at networking, and made pretty decent money for a HS kid. I bought a brand new Extended Cab XLT F150 when I was 17 (not having to pay for rent and food certainly helped. Yay mom!) I was good with networking and finding work doing that.

Then I worked my way through college, got my degree and made great contacts. Out of college I got a sale job that required a degree that paid a few times what my entire degree cost me. I made up all that it cost me and then some in my first full year. Plus I wasn't digging holes in fire ant beds anymore.

Do a lot of people get useless degrees? Sure. Do a lot of people suck ass at networking, making connections and what not? Absolutely. A degree is what you make of it and there are a TON of jobs that require you to have it.

[photonewb]

Originally Posted by Howard Barlow

Writing articles for Yahoo would be #8.

for some apparently arguing on internet forums pays well...

[brewercm]

Not exactly sure why being personally responsible is a rediculous statement, but hey feel free to tear it apart I suppose.

[Imagebuffet]

Originally Posted by Thomas Campbell

Over a lifetime, someone with a Bachelors degree will earn somewhere along the lines of twice as much as someone with a GED or HS diploma.

I am certain that what you mean is not what you wrote. Your statement would require a degree to be a guarantee of a job, and not only a job, but a well-paying job, which we all know it is not. The earning power you reference is the average of a set of graduates from a study conducted several years ago.

Originally Posted by Thomas Campbell

My bachelors cost me somewhere in the neighborhood of $20,000 from a top 50 school in the country (think they are top 60 now.)

Wow, you might as well tell us how old you are!

The last class that I took at UTD (2008) cost me $1500. That was for a single, 3 credit hour class. Admittedly, that cost is not linear, due to non-repeating expenses. Even so, a single year of in-state tuition as a full-time (12 c.h) student at UTD is easily going to hit $10k, and that doesn't include room and board. I might as well point out now that even back in the '80s, the engineering schools were recommending that students take 5 years to complete their Bachelor's Degree, because the course load is too heavy for 4 years for most students. So, a B.S. completed entirely at UTD is going to cost at least $50k for in-state students.

I took a single year of college (actually, 3.5 semesters) at LeTourneau University in '95/'96. That required a $14k student loan, in addition to the state grant and work study that I had.

Originally Posted by Thomas Campbell

Before I earned my degree, the best I did was landscaping with a couple buddies.

Bill Gates became a multi-billionaire before he got his college degree. So, what's wrong with you? What's wrong with the rest of us?

Originally Posted by Thomas Campbell

I was good at networking, and made pretty decent money for a HS kid. I bought a brand new Extended Cab XLT F150 when I was 17 (not having to pay for rent and food certainly helped. Yay mom!) I was good with networking and finding work doing that.

I lived in the South Valley of Albuquerque when I was 17. I managed to find a job in town as a dishwasher. I earned about enough money to pay for the gas and insurance on the car my step-dad bought. He actually thought I was going to earn enough money to buy that car from him! The reason that I took the job was to earn enough money to buy supplies for my science fair project on optical computers. I ended up having to confine my science fair project to a research paper that I managed to scrape together. My paper was good enough for me to win a few awards at state level, but I do wish I could have done more practical application of theory. That was my motivation to get my Associate's Degree in Laser Electro-Optic Technology after I returned home from the Navy.

Originally Posted by Thomas Campbell

Then I worked my way through college, got my degree and made great contacts. Out of college I got a sale job that required a degree that paid a few times what my entire degree cost me. I made up all that it cost me and then some in my first full year. Plus I wasn't digging holes in fire ant beds anymore.

I'm surprised to hear that Texas had fire ants back then. But, when you say that you worked your way through college, exactly what do you mean? Were you able to pay for all your expenses (including tuition) from the work you did while in college?

Originally Posted by Thomas Campbell

Do a lot of people get useless degrees? Sure. Do a lot of people suck ass at networking, making connections and what not? Absolutely.

Does one need a college degree to do great at networking? Of course not! So, again, of what use is that college degree? Having it doesn't pay for itself. Not having it, but having connections, earns much more money.

Originally Posted by Thomas Campbell

A degree is what you make of it and there are a TON of jobs that require you to have it.

There are a ton of jobs that require a degree simply because someone made the arbitrary decision to require a degree. It is nothing more than that. It is just an arbitrary decision, unconnected to any real need.

[Thomas Campbell]

Your statement would require a degree to be a guarantee of a job, and not only a job, but a well-paying job, which we all know it is not.

No. The average bachelor's degree holder makes about twice as much over their life as the average HS Diploma holder. That doesn't require a guarantee of a job, it is just a fact that the average degree holder makes more than the average non-degree holder.

The earning power you reference is the average of a set of graduates from a study conducted several years ago.

No it isn't. It is from census data.

Wow, you might as well tell us how old you are!

I am 30 and attended Texas A&M from Fall 98 through Fall 03. I also took 9 hours of classes from community college classes. The most recent one was in 2008ish, and cost me $150+fees for a standard 3 hour class. Tuition in the Fall of 98 was somewhere along the lines of $34/credit hour.

and that doesn't include room and board.

Room and board is completely irrelevant because you have to stay somewhere and eat something whether or not you are taking classes.

At UH, education classes run ~175/hour. If you need around 130 hours to graduate, that is about $23,000 for tuition.

Bill Gates became a multi-billionaire before he got his college degree. So, what's wrong with you? What's wrong with the rest of us?

Bill Gates is an outlier in every sense of the word. I'm a pretty average college graduate.

But, when you say that you worked your way through college, exactly what do you mean? Were you able to pay for all your expenses (including tuition) from the work you did while in college?

Yes, and helped support my disabled father who moved in with me, too.
I got about $1000 in grants total in college.
I delivered the paper. I waited tables. I did landscaping. I worked at coffee shops. I was a lab instructor. I wrote/photographed/edited the school newspaper. I was a caretaker for my disabled father who moved in with me my sophomore year of college and needed 11 surgeries just that year.

Does one need a college degree to do great at networking? Of course not!

No, but it certainly helps. In the 7 years since I was a student at A&M, I have received a great deal of business from other Aggies. People I met there, people who are friends of friends from there, people who I meet now that also have an Aggie Ring on. That ring was the best investment I have ever made. I can directly trace 6-figures worth of salary and jobs directly to being an Aggie and the networking I have done through A&M. Maybe half the brides I shoot are Aggies and are referred to me through the Aggie Network. Aggies trust other Aggies and Aggies take care of other Aggies.

So, again, of what use is that college degree? Having it doesn't pay for itself.

My degree from A&M paid for itself many times over in the first year I was out of A&M.

There are a ton of jobs that require a degree simply because someone made the arbitrary decision to require a degree. It is nothing more than that. It is just an arbitrary decision, unconnected to any real need.

It doesn't matter how arbitrary it is. That's completely irrelevant. My degree unlocks that door and I am immediately qualified for those jobs.

[brewercm]

A degree doesn't guarantee anything to anybody other than you had the discipline to stick with something to the end. There are degrees that teach you basic principles and theory but not much practical experience, at least not the same as working in that field gets you. Unfortunately unless you go the route I did (20 years Air Force) you are unlikely to get that experience in that field and no employer has anything to judge you on other than your academic career.

My time in the Air Force didn’t guarantee me anything getting out other than I’d have a little bit of a paycheck and other benefits. I still had to prove myself on the outside the same as anyone else. I just had the benefit of having many years of experience a college graduate didn’t. Now I’m back in school full time myself along with working full time, and having a full time family. I suppose I could whine about how unfair it is to me but these are my choices and “I” expect them to pay off in the end, nobody has guaranteed me they will though.

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Originally Posted by brewercm

Not exactly sure why being personally responsible is a rediculous statement, but hey feel free to tear it apart I suppose.

The reason you aren't rich like Bill Gates is because you are a slacker. A slacker! That's right; it's your own fault, your own lack of character, that has prevented you from being filthy rich! It is a testament to your lack of character! Slacker!

How's that for personal responsibility? Slacker!

You are the guy who thinks the shopper only has himself to blame when he buys snake oil. It's the fault of the buyer for not investigating all the charlatans, cheats and frauds, by your way of thinking. Life isn't fair, and it *shouldn't* be fair! Riches goes to the guy who can out-con the other.

We are in the worst economic downturn in 80 years. Nationwide unemployment is 9.5%+. The stock market came crashing down, nations came to the verge of bankruptcy or actually went bankrupt, but still these people have nothing better to offer than claiming that this is the nature of business, that it must be this way, that things cannot be changed. They are wrong on every count!

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Originally Posted by markfh

You've pretty much been on a quasi political rant this entire thread so don't go getting all high and mighty.

Originally Posted by markfh

It's obvious you have a problem with the system as it currently works. Like someone said it ain't perfect and it ain't always fair. Fair being highly subjective.

Like the budget, we need to do something about it, or disaster looms. But, someone is always there to tell us why we can't change it.

Originally Posted by markfh

I'm not sure what you want in life but it's seems you ain't getting it.

This is true.

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Originally Posted by brewercm

A degree doesn't guarantee anything to anybody other than you had the discipline to stick with something to the end.

So, all degrees are the same?

Thanks for playing.

Next!

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Originally Posted by Thomas Campbell

In the 7 years since I was a student at A&M, I have received a great deal of business from other Aggies. People I met there, people who are friends of friends from there, people who I meet now that also have an Aggie Ring on. That ring was the best investment I have ever made. I can directly trace 6-figures worth of salary and jobs directly to being an Aggie and the networking I have done through A&M. Maybe half the brides I shoot are Aggies and are referred to me through the Aggie Network. Aggies trust other Aggies and Aggies take care of other Aggies.

[...]

It doesn't matter how arbitrary it is. That's completely irrelevant. My degree unlocks that door and I am immediately qualified for those jobs.

Sounds like the Masons.