Beware Ft Worth police quota time

[MD2595]

Originally Posted by T. Adam Martin

Law enforcement is not above reproach by the community it serves just because of the nature of the job. I don't need to become an officer in order to hold them accountable.

With the rise in media coverage, there has been an equal rise in the amount of scrutiny for law enforcement. For the officers that have commented on this thread, you have been done a great disservice by other officers that have abused their power. The perception does exist, however, that rather than address the issues of power abuse, the tendency is that departments circle the wagon to protect their own first and foremost. Whether this is the right or wrong way to handle public relations is in dispute. And what many are voicing is the frustration with accountability.

In the event that the OP was stopped without cause, it is his responsibility to now prove he is innocent: it's time consuming, aggravating and costly to do so. The recourse is to file a complaint and sue for civil damages, but that involves additional costs. If he could win, is it worth it? The answer is probably no, but that leaves people like the OP with a sense of injustice that could have been avoided had the officer been more levelheaded. I say all this on the basis of IF the story is as the OP relays it.

My contention with law enforcement is that even though there are a number of good cops, the profession is attractive to a strong contingent of people I don't want to have as law enforcement officers: the screening mechanisms and incentives right now are misaligned for choosing good officers. So we end up with police forces that have a significant contingent of officers that may have noble ambition, but also take visceral pleasure from the power the uniform transmits. Unfortunately, many stories that come out nationwide serve to reinforce this perception.

I have to disagree with the sentiment of the quote above that the responsibility to understand the police officer lies with the public. As a community service center, the management of expectations and perceptions lies with the police department and the city. Neither of those entities is doing a good job of fighting the bad publicity. The more that comes out, the more the disenchantment with law enforcement will continue and rise.

I'll agree with you. If the police profession would do a better job in policing itself, the public perception would be better. We here in FW are going in this direction. Gone are the days of "the silent code". No one is willing to jeapordize their job for someone else's misconduct. The current chief is doing a good job about addressing alcohol related incidents. We've had a few recent black eyes, and the Cisneros incident is the worst. There is NO excuse for misconduct like that.

[CallMeAl]

Originally Posted by Thomas Campbell

And you still can't admit that traffic enforcement is not a primary responsibility and therefor not something they are judged hard on.

Talking about the fact that many patrol officers don't write any or many tickets when discussing that traffic officers have numbers they need to meet is absolutely asinine.

It is sad and not at all surprising that the cops immediately defend the cop they don't know. All too often, the fraternal brotherhood of LEOs is far more important than law and justice.

I can and have admitted that traffic enforcement is not the primary function/responsibility of patrol officers, but it is a function and was a part of the evaluation when I worked in patrol. That evaluation was not based on the number of tickets that I wrote, but did include traffic enforcement which included stops, dedicated traffic enforcement (running radar) whether citations or stops were performed or not, etc. Obviously, since the traffic unit's primary function is enforcing traffic laws, they are judged more critically in the area.

As for defending cops I don't know. I'm not taking either side in the situation as presented by the OP. However, when people want to get on their soapbox and rant about things they truly don't know. I'm more than happy to present the truth. Because I have a camera and have been to a wedding, even shot a couple, I wouldn't dare begin to tell a veteran wedding photographer such as Don Barnes (I'm not dragging you into this Don, just using you as an example) how he should be doing his job or that he's wrong when he explains something based on his many years of experience and I don't like his answer.

There are bad cops just as there are bad accountants and bad politicians and yes even bad photographers. Unfortunately, many of these are in small towns who lack the finances and ability to adequately conduct a thorough background check on their officers. And it's the public who suffers for this. I've worked in a department like that...who has hired people like that and I have complained to and have reported officers like that to the Texas Rangers. A bad cop reflects bad on all cops regardless of how professional, trained or dedicated they are to their profession. Just like a bad "photographer" does when arrested for some illegal activity.

Another poster talked about it's the police department's responsibility to improve their image with the public (or something to that effect). I agree. We work hard to improve the image of the department and educate the public. Thus the citizen's police academies. People think they know the inner workings of a police department, but unless you work in one, you really don't. Get involved. Take us up on the opportunity to learn what we do, how we do it and why. If you don't like it, contact the city council and get it changed. It doesn't hurt my feelings at all. We are not above critique and criticism. I would venture to say that we are second guessed and criticized more than anyone except an NFL quarterback on Monday morning. That's just part of the job.

[Thomas Campbell]

Because I have a camera and have been to a wedding, even shot a couple, I wouldn't dare begin to tell a veteran wedding photographer such as Don Barnes (I'm not dragging you into this Don, just using you as an example) how he should be doing his job or that he's wrong when he explains something based on his many years of experience and I don't like his answer.

The obvious difference being that there is no set standards of how a photographer is supposed to cover a wedding while there are very clear, set standards as to how a police officer is supposed to act.

[Thomas Campbell]

Because I have a camera and have been to a wedding, even shot a couple, I wouldn't dare begin to tell a veteran wedding photographer such as Don Barnes (I'm not dragging you into this Don, just using you as an example) how he should be doing his job or that he's wrong when he explains something based on his many years of experience and I don't like his answer.

The obvious difference being that there is no set standards of how a photographer is supposed to cover a wedding while there are very clear, set standards as to how a police officer is supposed to act.

[CallMeAl]

Originally Posted by Thomas Campbell

The obvious difference being that there is no set standards of how a photographer is supposed to cover a wedding while there are very clear, set standards as to how a police officer is supposed to act.

The clear standard is that they are to be professional and un-biased. Beyond that, it varies from department to department. As officers from different agencies here have stated, they work a little differently. Like I stated, there are thousands of laws. Do people really want zero tolerance? That would be one standard, but no one wants that, including the officers. There is the problem which can and does lead to potential abuse. Who do you write tickets to or arrest? Where do you run traffic enforcement? You can't only run it in the poorer areas of town less you be accused of picking on poor people. Or in the predominately black, asian, hispanic or white neighborhoods less you be accused of being racist. Unfortunately, it often ends up with officers being reactive chasing complaints (someone complains about speeding in this neighborhood, so you work traffic there, etc) as opposed to being proactive and trying to prevent crimes from occurring in the first place, etc. Our department is working very hard to be more proactive.

By the way Thomas, I've always liked your sports photos, but just now saw the rest of your portfolio stuff on SmugMug. Great work all across the board!

[Patti Edens]

Originally Posted by CallMeAl

...snip

I've suggested it numerous times on this forum. If you want to know more about your local police department and what is involved in law enforcement, attend one of the citizen police academies that so many agencies have. You might even enjoy it.

Highly recommended!!!

I attended Missouri City's Citizen's Police Academy. It was fascinating. I learned a lot and the officers that put on the class (on their own time) gained my respect and admiration for the information they imparted and the way in which they did it.

I was always taught to respect police officers, but after taking this course, I had a much better appreciation for what they do and why they do it.

If your town does this and you have a chance to go, do it!

The coolest part was the Shoot/Don't Shoot exercise. I almost wasted the rubber snake that jumped out of the cabinet, but I didn't. Then I did get the bad guy that came out of the closet. The other fun night was when we went to the range and got to shoot SWAT's automatic weapons. Awesome.

The stories that the detectives told were better than any CSI show. The fire marshall gave a really great demonstration of how many arsons they had investigated and busted.

And there was a whole lot more - all educational and interesting.

Patti

[Terry C]

Originally Posted by ka5txl

It's not odd at all since the Texas Legislature said a few years ago that you don't need to wear a helmet in the state of Texas. It's called freedom to make wise or unwise decisions Now don't get caught riding your schwinn bike around the streets of Dallas sans helmet but on your Harley your ok

Its my understanding that the Texas Law is - no you don't have to ride a motorcycle with a helmet if you have completed the motorcycle safety course and have been issued the appropriate certification. Having said that, if you are smart enough to take the course, then you're probably going to wear a helmet anyway. I'm seeing a lot more Harley riders wearing helmets these days than in the past.

[Hogleg 44]

Originally Posted by Terry C

Its my understanding that the Texas Law is - no you don't have to ride a motorcycle with a helmet if you have completed the motorcycle safety course and have been issued the appropriate certification. Having said that, if you are smart enough to take the course, then you're probably going to wear a helmet anyway. I'm seeing a lot more Harley riders wearing helmets these days than in the past.

The way I remember it...When the helmet law was SEMI-repealed years ago it stated that you could ride without a helmet, IF, You had completed an approved advanced rider training course, OR you carried x numbers of dallars worth of medical insurance. (Basically, To pay your hospital bill so the state wouldn't have to cover it.)
If you met the legislated criteria, you could then apply for a special sticker for your license plate, and only then, with the sticker displayed, you could ride without wearing a helmet. Legally!
In all of my years riding bikes since that law was passed, I have never knowingly seen that sticker on a license. But I have sure seen a lot of helmet less riders.
Maybe something has changed to make that ruling more lenient, but I have never seen it! It never concerned me though because I will not ride without a helmet and appropriate footwear, gloves, jeans and jacket.

[Rson]

2-14 HEADGEAR. (a) A person commits an offense if the person:
2-15 (1) operates or rides as a passenger on a motorcycle
2-16 on a public street or highway; and
2-17 (2) is not wearing protective headgear that meets
2-18 safety standards adopted by the department.
2-19 (b) A person commits an offense if the person carries on a
2-20 motorcycle on a public street or highway a passenger who is not
2-21 wearing protective headgear that meets safety standards adopted by
2-22 the department.
2-23 (c) It is an exception to the application of Subsection (a)
2-24 or (b) [a defense to prosecution under this section] that at the
2-25 time the offense was committed, the person required to wear
3-1 protective headgear[:]
3-2 [(1)] was at least 21 [18] years old[;] and had
3-3 successfully completed a motorcycle operator training and safety
3-4 course under Chapter 662 or was covered by a health insurance plan
3-5 providing the person with at least $10,000 in medical benefits for
3-6 injuries incurred as a result of an accident while operating or
3-7 riding on a motorcycle "


Wow, for 10,000 that might get you an hour in the ER. I wonder how much "the public" would be out after the hour because you want to ride without a helmet.

[Hogleg 44]

Originally Posted by Rson

2-14 HEADGEAR. (a) A person commits an offense if the person:".........
...
...
Wow, for 10,000 that might get you an hour in the ER. I wonder how much "the public" would be out after the hour because you want to ride without a helmet.

Cool, Thanks!

It has been years since that was written, unless it was more recently updated...
10 grand back then would likely buy you a few more hours than it will today.
But...regardless, I have never heard of anyone who was helmetless when ticketed for another offense being asked to show proof of the requirements. I guess it has happened, but I haven't heard about it. The majority of my riding friends do believe in wearing adequate protection.

[Howard Barlow]

Originally Posted by Colyn

Quotas are a fact of life.

ALL patrol officers are required to write so many tickets per month.

I love threads like this one, you know, about cops and law. I don't think any other subject gives the opportunity for people to show their ignorance in such a grand fashion. I love the emphatic statements about law, made by those who have no clue, whatsoever, about law.

The above quote is a perfect example. Both statements are based in ignorance. Not calling the poster an ignorant person, but these comments are just laughable.

[Toad]

Originally Posted by z-monster

I would LOVE to see factual proof that police officers are required to fill quotas. I have 3 officers in my neighborhood that I know very well.

All 3 read this and LAWL'd.

*Sigh*...

Washington State Police Use Ticket Quotas
Texas: Ticket Quota Memo Uncovered
Texas: Police Chief Faces Ticket Quota Charges
Michigan: Community Protest Torpedoes Ticket Quota
Iowa: Police Chief Suspended Over Ticket Quota
Denver, Colorado Ticket Quota Uncovered
Utah: Police Chief Blocks Ticket Quota Ban
ONLY ON 46: DeKalb Police May Have Ticket Quotas - Atlanta News Story - WGCL Atlanta

That good enough for ya'?

edit:
More:
http://detnews.com/article/20081118/...-ticket-totals
http://www.bangordailynews.com/detail/121323.html
http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/26/2601.asp

[Toad]

While we're at it... what about shortening the yellow light time so that they can generate more red light tickets?

6 Cities That Were Caught Shortening Yellow Light Times For Profit

[MD2595]

Originally Posted by Toad

*Sigh*...

Washington State Police Use Ticket Quotas
Texas: Ticket Quota Memo Uncovered
Texas: Police Chief Faces Ticket Quota Charges
Michigan: Community Protest Torpedoes Ticket Quota
Iowa: Police Chief Suspended Over Ticket Quota
Denver, Colorado Ticket Quota Uncovered
Utah: Police Chief Blocks Ticket Quota Ban
ONLY ON 46: DeKalb Police May Have Ticket Quotas - Atlanta News Story - WGCL Atlanta

That good enough for ya'?

edit:
More:
Cops' jobs tied to ticket totals | detnews.com | The Detroit News
Bangor chief issues parking ticket quota - Bangor Daily News
West Virginia Legislature Concludes Ticket Quotas Exist

Hahaha. Red Oak and Midlothian. Good try, but those are tiny departments and hardly illustrate large department ticket quota abuse.

[MD2595]

Originally Posted by Toad

While we're at it... what about shortening the yellow light time so that they can generate more red light tickets?

6 Cities That Were Caught Shortening Yellow Light Times For Profit

Are you implying that the Police Departments were behind this? Because if you are, there is no proof of it. It lays the blame at city governments, not the PD specifically.

[Toad]

Originally Posted by MD2595

Hahaha. Red Oak and Midlothian. Good try, but those are tiny departments and hardly illustrate large department ticket quota abuse.

Oh I'm sorry... I didn't see in the post I quoted that it had to be a CERTAIN city...
So it's ok for the little cities to have quotas, but not the big cities? That is what it sounds like you're saying.
Does that mean that North Richland Hills, Richland Hills, Haltom City, Hurst, Bedford, Euless, Keller, Lake Worth, White Settlement, Burleson, Wataga, Saginaw, Sanson Park, River Oaks, Westover Hills, Benbrook, etc etc etc... can all have quotas, as long as FORT WORTH does not?

1... Just 1... police department in ALL of the US with a quota, is 1 too many.
Quotas aren't about keeping people from breaking the law. They are about making money.
In a department with quotas, where for 1 month, everybody is on their best behavior and break no laws, still have to give somebody tickets. And THAT is where you get crap like in the OP's story. A no front plate ticket when he had a front plate. And now it's his word vs. hers... and we all know how that normally works out.

[donlfaulkner]

It appears to me that it is the tiny "backwoods" type of communities with tiny minded people, that can't make it in the metropoloton (sp) areas, at the helm that are prone to abuse the powers vested in them. Sorta like Boss Hogg and his cronies.

[MD2595]

Originally Posted by Toad

Oh I'm sorry... I didn't see in the post I quoted that it had to be a CERTAIN city...
So it's ok for the little cities to have quotas, but not the big cities? That is what it sounds like you're saying.
Does that mean that North Richland Hills, Richland Hills, Haltom City, Hurst, Bedford, Euless, Keller, Lake Worth, White Settlement, Burleson, Wataga, Saginaw, Sanson Park, River Oaks, Westover Hills, Benbrook, etc etc etc... can all have quotas, as long as FORT WORTH does not?

1... Just 1... police department in ALL of the US with a quota, is 1 too many.
Quotas aren't about keeping people from breaking the law. They are about making money.
In a department with quotas, where for 1 month, everybody is on their best behavior and break no laws, still have to give somebody tickets. And THAT is where you get crap like in the OP's story. A no front plate ticket when he had a front plate. And now it's his word vs. hers... and we all know how that normally works out.

Drama queen much?

Please don't try to put words into my mouth. If you have a question, ask it.

Making officers write tickets for the sake of writing tickets is wrong.

You are taking the OP's word as gospel without requiring proof. I asked for a pic and still haven't seen one.

The point of this thread was the FWPD meeting a ticket quota, not Midlothian, Red Oak, or some obscure town in Washington. If you want to expand the scope of this thread, you're missing the point.

[Murph]

Ignatius Piazza: Stop Screaming, Start Shooting…
I can't watch this again, once was enough. I just can't describe this, watch it yourselves. The sound you hear is the officer dying. Kyle Dinkheller 22 yoa, Badge #37,Deputy Dinkheller is survived by his expectant wife and 22-month-old daughter. Deputy Dinkheller's son was born in early September 1998.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=326271a274 Randy Vetter, San Marcos- I was working that day, and I went to his funeral.

[ChristopherCoy]

HOT DAMN! Been a while since we had a good bash the cops thread.... bout time someone started a new one!

[Colyn]

Originally Posted by MD2595

Hahaha. Red Oak and Midlothian. Good try, but those are tiny departments and hardly illustrate large department ticket quota abuse.

Care to comment on former Chief Mendoza's memo that ALL westside officers were to make more unwarranted traffic stops or face disciplinary action around 3 years ago.

Remember...a couple of patrol officers who opposed it leaked it to the Star-Telegram and it made front page news for several days when he stuck his foot in his mouth by answering reporters questions as to the purpose with to check for criminal intent or activity.

Both were violations of law..

Recently I read in the same newspaper that Fort Worth under its new chief is attempting to [legally???] circumvent the Supreme Courts ruling that random traffic stops were unconstitutional. Fort Worth under its current leadership wants to bring back harrassing random traffic stops..

Fort Worth is not a small city...

Just so you don't think I am anti-police...I have all the respect in the world for honest officers who daily put their lives on the line for people who they don't even know. But I have no respect whatsoever for those who place themselvies above the badge they wear..

[KD5NRH]

Originally Posted by Hogleg 44

The way I remember it...When the helmet law was SEMI-repealed years ago it stated that you could ride without a helmet, IF, You had completed an approved advanced rider training course,

IIRC, you can't get a new class M endorsement without completing such a course now, so it's pretty much irrelevant for anyone licensed since that changed.

[jeffro20]

Originally Posted by donlfaulkner

It appears to me that it is the tiny "backwoods" type of communities with tiny minded people, that can't make it in the metropoloton (sp) areas, at the helm that are prone to abuse the powers vested in them. Sorta like Boss Hogg and his cronies.

You mean like Dalworthington Gardens and Pantego. Watch your ass going down Bowen Rd on the west side of Arlington. Their territory is soooo small that they have little better to do than look for their next victim.

[CallMeAl]

Originally Posted by ChristopherCoy

HOT DAMN! Been a while since we had a good bash the cops thread.... bout time someone started a new one!

Don't even get me started on those dispatchers!!! HA HA

[Ahh!]

Oh, bother! Its time to bring out the...

[KD5NRH]

Originally Posted by CallMeAl

Don't even get me started on those dispatchers!!! HA HA

Ah yes, time does not pass in the dispatch office.

It's amusing to listen to them sometimes: "caller reports suspect left approximately one minute ago" when the call has been holding for ten minutes and the caller has been off the line for the last nine.

[Dobick]

Originally Posted by CallMeAl

There are bad cops just as there are bad accountants and bad politicians and yes even bad photographers. Unfortunately, many of these are in small towns who lack the finances and ability to adequately conduct a thorough background check on their officers. And it's the public who suffers for this. I've worked in a department like that...who has hired people like that and I have complained to and have reported officers like that to the Texas Rangers. A bad cop reflects bad on all cops regardless of how professional, trained or dedicated they are to their profession. Just like a bad "photographer" does when arrested for some illegal activity.

Tyler said what I feel much more eloquently than I could, so I will just say that I agree with him.

As to the quote about all professions having bad apples. Absolutely true, but I do not know of many bad photographers who have the ability to take away a brides freedom and keep her locked up for a day or two because she copped an attitude with the photographer.

[Davidtxs]

Originally Posted by Murph

Ignatius Piazza: Stop Screaming, Start Shooting…
I can't watch this again, once was enough. I just can't describe this, watch it yourselves. The sound you hear is the officer dying. Kyle Dinkheller 22 yoa, Badge #37,Deputy Dinkheller is survived by his expectant wife and 22-month-old daughter. Deputy Dinkheller's son was born in early September 1998.
LiveLeak.com - Old Texas Guy Shoots and Kills Cop then Radioed in for help Randy Vetter, San Marcos- I was working that day, and I went to his funeral.

I started both of them and stopped within a few seconds. I be they are good training films tho I hope of em got fried for it. Every one on here bashing cops needs to sit down with thier kids and watch them BOTH.

Cops have the toughest jpb out there some good ones some not so good but its a trade off if you DONT like it either run for office and get the laws changed or theres always Canada
this thread needs to DIE a fast death

[MD2595]

Originally Posted by Colyn

Care to comment on former Chief Mendoza's memo that ALL westside officers were to make more unwarranted traffic stops or face disciplinary action around 3 years ago.

Remember...a couple of patrol officers who opposed it leaked it to the Star-Telegram and it made front page news for several days when he stuck his foot in his mouth by answering reporters questions as to the purpose with to check for criminal intent or activity.

Both were violations of law..

Recently I read in the same newspaper that Fort Worth under its new chief is attempting to [legally???] circumvent the Supreme Courts ruling that random traffic stops were unconstitutional. Fort Worth under its current leadership wants to bring back harrassing random traffic stops..

Fort Worth is not a small city...

Just so you don't think I am anti-police...I have all the respect in the world for honest officers who daily put their lives on the line for people who they don't even know. But I have no respect whatsoever for those who place themselvies above the badge they wear..

Unwarranted traffic stops? So we're going from a "ticket quota" to traffic stops? Mendoza wanted officers to get off thier duffs and make stops. There is nothing illegal about stopping someone for an expired inspection sticker, illegal turn, etc. Now forcing them to write tickets is another. I have no problem with directing officers to make LEGAL stops of violators. Mendoza did not tell them to issue citations, just to make investigatory stops.

Those officers that "leaked" it were lazy bums that didn't like being made to do their jobs. They wanted to come to work and collect a check for no work product. Is that how you want business conducted? You enjoy the thought of a bunch of leeches sucking your tax dollars for nothing?

Please show a link to a valid story about Chief Halstead wanting to circumvent a "legal traffic stop". This is the first I've heard of it. Explain exactly how this process works.

By the way, I'm still waiting for that pic of the front of your vehicle.

[CallMeAl]

Originally Posted by Ahh!

Oh, bother! Its time to bring out the...

Peter...I have to agree.